Milinda’s Questions

(previous installment here)
Wright:There are people who report absolute ecstasy through meditation. Is it realistic to hope for that?

Joseph Goldstein: Well, first it’s important to understand that there are different kinds of meditation and some kinds of meditation have this vague goal of blissful states. Other kinds of meditation have as their goal wisdom.

Wright: And is vipassana, your tradition is…

Joseph Goldstein: Vipassana is much more on the wisdom side. But within Buddhism,the blissful states generally come through the deepening of concentration, when you’re focusing on that aspect, as opposed to the insight side. But as I said, these two intertwine with each other and even in the vipassana tradition, though ecstasy or bliss is not the goal of it, at certain points along the path it gets very blissful. But the caution there within this teaching would be: Experience it, but don’t get attached to it, because that’s not the goal.

Wright: Should you not get addicted to meditation then?

Joseph Goldstein: No. You shouldn’t get addicted to anything. Although there is one discourse of the Buddha, the title of which is “One Fortunate Attachment.” You know, so he’s acknowledging…

Wright: The only one I recommend.

Joseph Goldstein: Yes. As a way of going beyond even that. But as a vehicle; a well used vehicle.

Wright: That’s interesting. And I gather that there are — I mean, when I think of wisdom as a goal of meditation, I think, for example, of the moral dimension. You know, understanding I’m not really the most important person in the world — things like that.

But then there’s also insight of a metaphysical kind, almost, which I think you alluded to at the very beginning, when you were talking about your epiphany. That too is sometimes part of meditation: A sense of a deeper understanding into the essential nature of reality.

Joseph Goldstein: Yes, yes, yes, yes, very much. That’s where it’s leading. It’s really going right to the heart of understanding the nature of reality, experientially not theoretically. That’s what I think distinguishes the meditative journey from a philosophic journey.

Wright: And, as a result, is the insight of a sort that really …

Joseph Goldstein: Is transformative?

Wright: Can you talk about it though? Can you articulate it?

Joseph Goldstein: Yes. Again, there are some very simple examples, although they also go to very profound levels. But on a simple level: You go up to anybody and ask: “Do things change?” And everybody will say, “Yes.” But there’s a big difference between the knowing of that intellectually, and actually being in the moment-to-moment aware experience of things changing — in terms of what’s happening in the mind, and the level of transformative understanding. On the conceptual level it doesn’t have that much impact. It might have some. When you’re on the level of really seeing the change moment to moment, the mind is in a very different space. So that’s just a very simple example.

Wright: Well, you must be right, because my reaction just intellectually to the doctrine of impermanence is: I don’t consider that reassuring. I mean, Buddhists say, “This is going to make you feel better. Nothing lasts. Everything is impermanent, including yourself.” And my reaction is: I don’t think I’m happier than I was before you told me that. So there must be there must be something about experiencing the truth of that in a kind of intuitive or literal way that makes it good news?

Joseph Goldstein: Yes, yes, yes, yes, I — You want. . . ?

Wright: Sure!

Joseph Goldstein: I can tell you the news.

Wright: I’m ready for the good news.

Joseph Goldstein: The good news is — the bad news is that things change. The good news is that when we’re seeing it rather than just having the intellectual understanding of it, in the moment of seeing it, the mind is not grasping. The mind is not holding on, and the mind of non-grasping is at peace. And so it’s the insight into impermanence that actually brings us into a different place of experience. So things are still happening, and things are still changing. But because we’re seeing it, we’re no longer holding on. We’re settling back, and everything is still in the process of changing, but there’s no stress.

Wright: So truly truly deeply appreciating impermanence makes you indifferent to it or not depressed by it or…?

Joseph Goldstein: I wouldn’t say indifferent to it; I would say open to it. Yes. This is the truth of things, and even experience some of the beauty of it. But the crux of the issue is not the impermanence of self but how we’re relating to it. Impermanence is a description of how things are happening. Whether we suffer or not in that process depends on how we relate to that truth. Mostly people are not aware of it on a moment-to-moment experiential level, and so are not relating to the truth of impermanence in a way that brings peace.

(next installment here)

meditation